Comment
That’s a thoughtful answer… and one that goes beyond just spraying a bunch of Bible verses.
I’ll focus on one aspect of what you said here, which I think is somewhat representative of everything… well, actually two. I’ll start with:
“2. The fruits of the spirit are absolute and can be observerd; Joy, peace, kindness, etc.”
I personally see these “fruits” in my Muslim friends… my Mormon friends… my Jewish friends …my agnostic/atheist friends. These are clearly not people that you would consider as being “led by the Holy Spirit”, right? So this is not really an indicator of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
“4. Claims abouth truth can have accent differences. As many denominations focus on different aspects with certain importance. This is the main reason for the denominations.”
Actually, it’s not a main reason for the denominations. And it creates the oft-repeated strawman statement by Christians, “the differences in denominations are just over minor and unimportant doctrinal issues” or, perhaps “they are just different ways of looking at the same underlying truth”.
But neither is true. Although there are instances where one is simply looking at things from a different perspective, there are also instances where two views are mutually exclusive. For example, you can’t say “Jesus wasn’t God’s son” vs. “Jesus was God’s son” and say that these are just different perspective–the two views cannot both be true.
Furthermore, there are some differences over major issues, not just minor ones. Here’s an example: eternal security. One view says that once you’re saved, you’re always saved, and another view says that you can lose your salvation. There are many “spirit led” Christians on both sides of the camp, and you really can’t chalk this one up to being a minor issue. Whether/how one might lose their salvation is every bit as important as how one might acquire it in the first place (and I’m sure Christians would agree that the latter is a major issue).
So I just don’t see the Holy Spirit being much good at leading–either the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead, or people’s biasis get in the way when he does.
Oh… one final thing. Why would the Holy Spirit be willing to lead on major doctrinal issues, but not minor ones?
What do you think?
Reply
Thanks for your reaction! Although I am a Christian, I relate to your questions, because apparently human minds ask the same questions, and have the same doubts. I therefor try to avoid the pitfall to just argue towards what I believe, I rather try to answer how I understand the topics you mention.
‘Joy, peace, kindness’ etc. can anywhere be observed. So are they thus not all fruits of the Holy Spirit (or some, or none at all)? The way I understand the Bible, is that our knowledge of right, wrong, God, etc. somehow, as a result of that first sin in paradise, is perverted. At the same time, we observe that anyone can have joy, be kind, experience peace, etc. The only way I can understand these two phenomena, is that the difference between ‘universal’ joy, peace and kindness and ‘Holy Spirit’ joy, peace and kindness is 1) due to the object that brings joy, peace and kindness. The cross of Christ is such an object, that -by faith and by the Holy Spirit- gives joy, peace and kindness, that our Muslim friends probably don’t have. 2) the second way I understand this, is that the Holy Spirit changes our character to more loving, peace- and joyful. But we are fallen humans that mess up (that is why I believe that Christianity is transformation, often still unbearable; it is not heaven on earth).
With regard to the differences in Christian thinking about theological issues, these are some considerations (that I would also apply to any religion):
1) I see a difference between religious statements, and how believers think what the technical explanation (or underlying reality) of religious statements are. Anytime I hear discussions between Christians about a phenomenon like ‘eternal security’, it strikes me as two people, who have never looked in the motor of a car, but on the basis of the description that there is a motor, become both very sure about the technical functioning of the motor. I cannot accept such certainty for myself if the texts do not provide one, single explanation. In such cases I just accept the explanation, for which most texts provide most evidence.
2) Every believer has a point where he claims that certain books are religious, other not. As with Mormonism and Islam, I cannot accept these books are from God. I have my reasons for this (won’t elaborate here for sake of space). So if a convinced Mormon or Muslim says ‘Jesus is not God’, it all comes down to the question: which books do you believe to have ‘the last word’. This leads to point 3:
3) I cannot see how anyone who reads the New Testament, who accept the New Testament as books from God, and who does not believe in the Quran and Book of Mormon as books of God, can possibly say ‘Jesus is not God’. If you accept the Quran or Book of Mormons as final, I certainly can understand such claims, but then the discussion is about the reliability of the (content) of the books.
4) So the final question to me is: to what knowledge does the Holy Spirit lead? At this point I have two references that can answer this question. What I observe and what I read in the gospels. Apparently the Spirit does not guide into universal knowledge about the ‘technical functioning of the motor’. So at this point it is curious what the scriptures say: if they contradict my observation, then I have a problem with the gospels. If not, then the knowledge of the Holy Spirit might just differ from my assumptions. For that reason only, I will quote some Biblical phrases: ‘He will testify about me. [Jesus]’, ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith’, ‘All Scripture is God-breathed’, ‘We have received the Spirit… so that we may understand what God has freely given us’, etc.
My interpretation is that all these statements rather point to rather general statements, than technical explanations. I don’t know why, but the Bible simply does not elaborate on the ‘minor issues’, if such exist. Maybe because the essence is about salvation from sin, but this is rather speculation. Please respond if you see any fallacies, reasoning towards my own faith, further questions (which I undoubtedly have as well), etc.
Respons
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful (rare) response. There’s a lot here, so I’ll give you my thoughts a bit later!
Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
Maybe to be continued
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